DEFRANK: It`s hard to know who, if anybody, at the moment, Chris. One of the things in the story in the "Daily News" that you`re talking about here is that he`s begin calling the paper -- reports that he`s been calling outside friends and advisers saying...
MATTHEWS: Who to trust?
DEFRANK: ... who`s leaking on me? Who, in your opinion, should I trust on my staff? Who, in your opinion, should I not trust on my staff? That is never a good sign.
MATTHEWS: Does he consider Karl Rove to be dispensable at this point because he may face an indictment?
DEFRANK: I think so. I`m told that. But, again, the president is an extremely loyal guy.