'Girls,' Lena Dunham's HBO Show, Season 2, Episode 4 Gchat: We're Adults Here

girls season 2 episode 4

Lori: So this episode was fantastic
Emma: I absolutely LOVED it. I think it's my favorite thus far.
Margaret: This is the episode we've been waiting for -- complex, surprising, even a little moving...
Lori: And we got to see stories from all four girls.
Margaret: Yes. I feel deprived when we don't. So first, Elijah and Hannah.
Emma: Yeah, this episode did for me this season what the third episode did last season.
Margaret: Why is Hannah dressed like a central casting housewife? Pinned hair, muumuu?
Emma: But no underwear.
Margaret: "My whole crotchal area just spreading out." Is crotchal a word?
Lori: Is her getup part of her vision of domesticity?
Margaret: I think it is. Hannah's been working this all season. Later this episode she says, "Excuse me, I am grown up. That's why I cooked all this food."
Lori: Right, and there was that comment about throwing dinner parties and how entertaining keeps her young in the first episode.
Emma: Hannah's entire story line took place in her home this episode, so it makes sense that it focused on her "domestic side." Although the whole scene was very domestic un-bliss. It was a divorce of sorts.
Margaret: Nothing is more domestic than divorce.
Emma: (Side note: I loved that Elijah justified not paying rent because he paid for Hannah's burritos junior year.)
Margaret: Wait, that can't be a side note. I have things to say about that.
Emma: OK, not side note.
Margaret: Elijah: "They were way more expensive than a normal girl's burritos because you were constantly doing add-ons. Spinach, guac, pecans." So Elijah's essentially calling her fat.
Emma: Which he's done before...
Lori: "A normal girl's" is an interesting choice of wording.
Lori: But beyond the weight comment, though it's not insignificant, that's just a dick move to bring up food he paid for as her boyfriend.
Emma: Yeah, I took it more as a characteristically bitchy Elijah comment. He wanted to lash out at her.
Margaret: Hannah wasn't letting the meanness in, though. I love how some of this stuff bounces off of her. "It's not my fault that you didn't want to liven up your meal."
Lori: I also liked the exchange about her "repurposing" him. She didn't want to get rid of him, but he didn't serve his previous function in her life.
Margaret: I thought Hannah was being very honest there. I think that's how she thinks about everyone -- as a character. She thought she could use him in another story, but she couldn't.
Margaret: One more point on their conversation about junior year: Hannah says, "That's what a boyfriend does. They pay for things." Look where that kind of thinking got Elijah.
Emma: Right, I mean a lot of Elijah's anger in the first place stemmed from the fact that he's broke and homeless right now because he was so dependent on George.
Margaret: Given that, he doesn't seem as worried or angry as you'd think he'd be. I thought it was particularly low that Hannah talked to George about keeping all the furniture. I know she's angry, but that's calculated.
Emma: I think that was more about getting back at Elijah -- and for George too! She says George wanted her to keep all of it.
Margaret: Right. Conspiring with the ex-boyfriend to screw your roommate out of your joint belongings is pretty heartless.
Emma: Also, they had to really get Elijah out of the story line because they had no way to bring Andrew Rannells back this season. So I think that explains PART of why their roomie breakup was so dramatic. I was glad Andrew Rannells' last scene of the season was lively.
Margaret: Speaking of lively, are we ready for the dinner party?

Margaret: I think this was Hannah at her purest.
Lori: Yes! In so many ways. She was obsessed with everyone loving her party, didn't want anyone to be mad at her, etc.
Margaret: And making typically bad choices as a result. You just made some actual cash, so you spent it on organic pad thai ingredients?
Emma: But again, classic Hannah. She was trying to demonstrate how "adult" she is. She can pay for dinner for her friends, throw an event and simultaneously celebrate her publishing accomplishment.
Margaret: For the record I did similar things so many times. "I made like $25 -- now I get to act like I'm 40 and have a summer house in Connecticut!"
Margaret: Then there's the way she treated Marnie. "I just invited her as a gesture."
Lori: "It is frankly psychotic of her to show up."
Margaret: Then she tells Marnie to stay.
Emma: She is terrified of people not liking her.
Margaret: I thought Marnie handled this situation remarkably well.
Lori: Me too. This is my favorite Marnie episode. I thought she seemed mature.
Emma: She did. She was very gracious to Charlie and Audrey and offered to leave.
Lori: But she had some good zingers too.
Margaret: Yes!
Emma: Like when she said that she and Hannah had done "nothing that great, nothing with condiments" after Audrey was talking about her mustard company.
Margaret: All together now: "So, where do you get your headbands?"
Emma: Perfection.
Lori: So great.
Margaret: A total f-you to the mustard chef.
Emma: Audrey is also the perfect pseudo-artisan Brooklyn hipster.
Lori: Especially when she asked Hannah if she was doing some slam-poetry night. Shut up, Audrey.
Emma: I do love that in real life, Audrey Gelman is the inspiration for Marnie. So there's something kind of meta about her being a character who fights with Marnie.
Margaret: Also, terrible segue on her part from discussion of butt plugs to how Marnie must be thinking about Charlie's asshole.
Lori: I know I just told Aubrey to shut up, but I may have to take it back. I don't blame her for being mad at Marnie for SLEEPING IN HER BOYFRIEND'S BED. I'm not sure about the butt comment and the setting for bringing it up, but I'd be pissed too.
Emma: I agree that she had every right to be pissed off, but this perhaps was not the forum to discuss it. Also, Audrey sank pretty low. "What was he supposed to do, turn away a crying mess?" I understand the impulse to say things like that, but ouch.
Margaret: And the bit about slitting her wrists? Terrible.
Emma: Hannah of course chimes in with the comment "Marnie's too self-involved to commit suicide."
Margaret: I loved that Hannah line. Again, SO HER.
Emma: SO HER.
Lori: OK, should we discuss the scene on the roof?

Emma: I didn't blame Marnie for just getting up and leaving. I would have done the same.
Margaret: Me too, probably earlier.
Lori: I wouldn't have gone to the roof though. I would have left.
Margaret: Right.
Emma: Same.
Emma: Also, I appreciated how honest Marnie was. "I'm a hostess, I don't know what the next year of my life is going to be like at all ... sometimes I just wish someone would tell me ... this is how the rest of your life should look."
Margaret: Marnie wanted to talk about how she felt. She was in friend mode, being honest with someone who knows her well.
Emma: And Charlie was in rekindling-romance mode...

girls season 2 episode 4

Margaret: Also regret mode. And drunk mode.
Lori: Right, and we saw how flattered/happy she was to hear Charlie detailing her good qualities.
Emma: Well, anyone would be.
Margaret: What did we think of his reaction to Booth Jonathan?
Emma: Marnie dating Booth REALLY stung Charlie. "That little Ewok in fuckin' capri pants."
Margaret: The penis gesture at the end was sad to me. That's not Charlie. He doesn't think he's a lothario, and he wouldn't want someone to miss him for the sex.
Lori: I think he was just so thrown off -- his ego was bruised, and he reacted. It didn't seem like him though.
Emma: I thought it was pretty unfair of him to assume that he would go comfort Marnie -- while having a girlfriend -- and that she would want to hook up with him.
Lori: He kind of tested the waters at Jessa's wedding too -- joking about hooking up in the bathroom.
Emma: At this point, Marnie is just trying to figure out her next moves. She's definitely not in a place to get back together with her college boyfriend. Also, what did you think about Hannah finally defending Marnie to Charlie when he comes back downstairs?
Lori: Well, she's right. He is being a jerk.
Emma: Absolutely! I was really happy that Hannah just put it out there, especially after Charlie called Marnie a c*nt ... which was so out of line.
Lori: He was "repurposing" Marnie's words about Audrey.
Margaret: It was good to hear that Hannah knows what Marnie's been through, that she didn't completely miss everything that's happened in Marnie's life over the past year.
Emma: And it rang really true to me. Like, you can be pissed at your best friend -- but that doesn't mean you want other people to speak badly about her. Should we move on to Ray and Shosh?
girls season 2 episode 4

Lori: Shosh's excuse for why they were late and subsequent for apology for lying was incredible.
Emma: Classic Shosh to be utterly embarrassed about being late -- and of course about having sex.
Margaret: Ray seemed so old and tired to me in this scene. Which was appropriate, considering what he later revealed to Shosh.
Lori: It was interesting that Ray said we're all adults, you can tell them we had sex. But is that really a mark of adulthood? I mean, discretion seems more adult.
Margaret: I think you can say you just had sex without anyone being squeamish. It just seems like bragging to me.
Emma: This episode really set up the differences between Shosh and Ray. He did seem kind of old and tired, and she was especially youthful with her pigtails. I think that was very intentional.
Margaret: Agree. On a different note, the way the group collectively explained butt plugs felt highly realistic. That's how peers explain sex to each other -- with awkwardness and unfinished sentences.
Emma: And hand motions.
Margaret: Well, that may be just a Hannah thing.
Lori: But when Hannah went, "Shosh!" -- I feel like that just makes it worse for Shosh, who already worries she's out of the loop. It's like saying, "I can't believe you don't know."
Margaret: I'm not sure Shosh really feels bad about that, though. I think she's more offended by the concept, once it's explained.
Emma: She really takes those kind of comments in stride.
Margaret: She definitely didn't seem embarrassed when she turned to Ray and asked, "Do you want that?!"

girls season 2 episode 4

Lori: I loved that her concerns were that she didn't have new sheets or have a chance to talk to her aunt about his moving in.
Margaret: It's interesting to me that Shosh isn't freaked out about discussing these things with Ray in front of an audience. Somehow that's not among her concerns about propriety, but getting new sheets is.
Emma: I find her really refreshing. She's just so honest -- in a way that most people have a really tough time being honest.
Margaret: There's a lack of self-consciousness there combined with extreme self-consciousness.
Lori: Subway scene?

Lori: So I cried both times I watched.
Emma: Me too.
Margaret: I didn't, but I thought it was really well done.
Emma: I also thought it was perfectly New York of them to get into this conversation as the L train is about to come.
Emma: Shosh: "You're older than me -- you should have your own place. You should have more interests and passions and things that you do."
Lori: I thought that quote was really insightful.
Emma: Me too. I think that she's been kind of in awe of Ray because he is older and more sexually experienced. For the first time she's realizing that maybe she has it more together than he does in certain ways.
Margaret: I think everyone tends to put the other person on a pedestal at first.
Emma: Absolutely. It was heartbreaking when he calls himself a loser. This really was Ray with all of his bravado stripped away.
Margaret: I want to know more about how he got into this position.
Lori: This is the first time I realized Ray was in his 30s.
Emma: Me too. I thought he was in his late 20s. Why are all of his best friends under 25?
Lori: Clearly a lot of his sarcasm is masking some insecurities.
Margaret: Yes.
Lori: I want to go back to something you said, Margaret. I think Lena makes a really good point here showing how we often feel like "the lucky one" in a relationship. I think Ray's sense of "Do I even deserve her?" isn't uncommon.
Margaret: Not at all.
Lori: He feels lucky to have her.
Margaret: And evidently has been terrified of being found out.
Emma: I think we're all always a bit terrified of someone discovering our vulnerabilities.
Lori: At least in the early stages, which is where they are.
Emma: Right.
Margaret: But I think there's also a fear of discovering the other person's weaknesses and shortcomings, and that when you do, you'll be disappointed. I think Shosh probably feels a twinge of that, even though she cares about him.
Emma: No one is ever as great as the image they try to portray.
Margaret: Which is why dating is flawed, which is a different conversation. Do we think Ray was right that it's way too soon for Shosh to say she's in love with him? She's 21.
Lori: You know what? I actually believe they do love each other. I have no idea if it will work out, but I accept that they have those feelings.
Margaret: I did believe her.
Emma: I absolutely believe it.
Lori: They're both sensitive enough to each other, at least at this point, that I have more faith in them than I might in other couples this early in the relationship.
Emma: They're both more honest people than most of the other characters.
Lori: Zosia Mamet is so good in this scene. After he tells her not to say she loves him, the look on her face is perfect -- a genuine struggle with how to proceed and concern that she messed up.
Margaret: I think she's at her most excellent here.
Emma: She's a fabulous actress. And she and Alex Karpovsky have great chemistry.
Margaret: Whereas Jess and Thomas John suddenly have less great chemistry.

girls season 2 episode 4

Lori: The honeymoon is OVER.
Margaret: I knew it when she said people who are early are vile. Actually I knew it when she was so defensive with Hannah when they were at the park with the puppies.
Emma: It was bound to explode.
Lori: OK, Thomas John was awful in a lot of ways, and I really do feel bad for Jessa, but I have to say this: Jessa needs to learn that you can be yourself and also tailor your behavior to certain situations.
Emma: Agreed. She was TRYING to torpedo that dinner.
Margaret: "I hate this restaurant, but I don't even care because I'm so happy to meet you guys!" Yet one of the reasons I love Jessa is that she refuses to tailor her behavior.
Emma: She was angry that Thomas John misrepresented her -- telling his parents she was going to be a graphic designer, for example.
Margaret: The graphic-design thing was terrible. Way to show your wife you're ashamed of her.
Lori: Also, the dinner made clear how little they know about each other. Had she not told him she only went to Oberlin for seven months?
Margaret: I don't think they've bothered to get to know one another. I love when Jessa starts taking revenge -- mentioning that she left Oberlin for rehab and that she's been drinking since she was a child.
Emma: And this zinger, "Wish there was a lord, but I know there isn't."
Margaret: Then she flirted with her father-in-law.
Lori: Thomas John's dad was also leering.
Margaret: He was fairly lechy.
Lori: The comment about how he was glad she wasn't hurt, "especially in the face and especially on your body." Gross.
Emma: He was lechy ... but also I think he was trying to smooth everything over. It was awful when Thomas John's mom implied that Jessa was a gold digger.
Margaret: Every scenario this episode has been about money. And it played a huge role in the fight that ensued when they got home.

Margaret: I appreciated that we got to see exactly how insecure and slimy Thomas John is all over again in this scene.
Lori: Yes, he was back to the Thomas John we met initially. He's a big baby.
Emma: He's SUCH a whiny baby! I think that Jessa was being pretty intentionally awful at dinner, but the scene between the two of them at their house was sad. You could feel the rage.
Margaret: The biggest difference between them came out right away. Jessa said she couldn't imagine that he'd wanted her to lie, and he said that wouldn't be the worst thing.
Emma: But to her, it would be. She has never misrepresented herself to him.
Lori: Jessa showed that she can really throw a punch, verbally and physically. "I'm embarrassed when we walk down the street because you're so fucking average."
Emma: I think she's right that he married her because he wanted to "live" -- to do something that was not so average and boring.
Margaret: Jessa may have had the most arresting lines of the whole show here: "I am going to look 50 when I'm 30. I am going to be so fucking fat because I'm going to be full of experiences." She was very emotional when she said it. It was sort of a profession of her personal creed.
Lori: I thought it was also interesting that she used the word "fat" that way. A positive spin?
Margaret: And that she wants to look older than she is. It's proof of what an individual she is -- she doesn't assign fat or age any of the thousands of negative associations the culture puts on them.
Emma: That was fabulous. Also Thomas John really reached his apex of awful with this line: "You know why I like hookers? They respect me."
Lori: The idea that hookers respect him is absurd.
Margaret: I doubt they respect you, dude.
Emma: Definitely not. But that just so perfectly summed up his feelings about women. He doesn't want the reality of a person. He doesn't want a relationship that will challenge him in a real way. He wants someone who will complete whatever image he wants completed at that moment.
Lori: He thought Jessa was going to be his little trophy wife, but then she didn't want to be on display -- she actually had thoughts and opinions, and he couldn't handle that.

girls season 2 episode 4

Margaret: And I doubt Jessa knew or cared that he's the one guy to make money during the recession, unless he bragged about it. Also, Thomas John, that is simply untrue. A (small) number of people made a ton during the recession.
Lori: "I'm a miracle. I'm a unicorn!"
Emma: He truly is a delusional person, as Jessa says.
Margaret: And miraculous only in the depth of that delusion.
Lori: The second Jessa called him ridiculous, I thought of our conversation last week about whether Marnie realized that Booth is ridiculous. Jessa sees it and tells it like it is.
Emma: I couldn't fault Jessa for smacking him when he called her a "whore with no work ethic."
Margaret: Suddenly he's saying to her what his parents seemed to think of her. Suddenly he's speaking completely as their little boy.
Lori: The fact that he won a "Hum-y" was the perfect touch.
Emma: "I won that for being a fucking humanitarian." And he probably considers himself one. Such a pathetic little man.
Margaret: He isn't doing a great job of respecting Jessa's humanity. And he can only have won that thing for donating obscene amounts of money, which isn't exactly being a humanitarian.
Emma: Not at all. But he can hold that award up and show it off and claim he's something that he's not. I loved Jessa for smashing it.
Margaret: Can we talk about how she lowballed the amount she asked for? Is it because she's clueless, doesn't want any money or both?
Emma: Maybe both? Or maybe she just wants it to be over with. It was heartbreaking that they were talking money.
Lori: I don't think she wants the money, but she takes it out of spite.
Margaret: Anyone disappointed that they broke up so soon? I really wanted this to last a little longer.
Lori: I'm not that disappointed, actually.
Emma: I'm not sure if I'm disappointed. I thought it was a really great ending. Appropriately dramatic. It wasn't the type of relationship that could disintegrate. It had to explode.
Margaret: I agree with that, but like I said a couple of weeks ago, I sort of wanted to see this crazy experiment work or at least get our hopes up that it might. If we're being honest, I also wanted more Thomas John. So what did we think of the end of the episode?

Emma: Perfection.
Margaret: I loved it. It was the Marnie/Hannah dancing scene of season 1.
Lori: Again, great acting. I think some of the things Thomas John said really did hit home with Jessa, and she feels a little lost. She did care about him, even if he is a jerk. And it's always disappointing when something doesn't work, even if you know it's not right.
Margaret: Always.
Emma: I loved that Hannah was singing Oasis, I loved how broken Jessa was (all displayed through Jemima's face) and I loved that she got in the bath with Hannah.
Margaret: Although again, what friends do that, even in Williamsburg?
Lori: Hannah and Jessa would.
Emma: Yeah, it felt right for their characters.
Lori: They are so open with their bodies that it's believable.
Emma: And the fact that they were naked made Jessa feel more vulnerable. She's too exhausted to do anything or talk about anything, but she just wants to be near Hannah.
Margaret: Somehow they always come back to the tub. It's like the well at the center of the show. Now with snot in it.
Emma: It's the equivalent of the elevator on "Grey's Anatomy."
Lori: All they needed were cupcakes.
Margaret: Do we think this show's ultimate scene will take place in a bathtub?
Emma: Do you mean the finale?
Margaret: Not the season finale, the show finale -- god forbid it ever comes.
Emma: Well, it would be appropriate, coming full circle.
Lori: I'm sorry, I just can't think about that yet. Too sad.
Margaret: Let's not. The end.

Read HuffPost Women's "Girls" Previous Gchats:


Episode 1: "Are We Okay?"

Episode 10: Surprise!

Episode 8: Pissed And Sad


QUIZ: Are These Quotes About "Sex and the City" Or "Girls"?

Are These Quotes About "Girls" Or "Sex And The City"?